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正在阅读:中国人从哪儿学的“a Chinese”这种用法的?

中国人从哪儿学的“a Chinese”这种用法的?

Where did Chinese people learn to say

龙腾网/翻译加工厂 2018-07-24 15:44:17 中国人学习英文
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我太常听/读到,但(在我这个美国人耳中),用“a Chinese”来表示一个中国人的这种用法听起来很不对劲。且按中文的表达,我觉得你会用“Chinese person”来形容中国人,所以我不觉得这是个基于差劲翻译的错误用法。

评论翻译

BillyBattsShinebox 18 points·5 days ago

Because Chinese doesn't use articles and because it's fine to say "an American/a German/a Korean/an Italian". Making sense of articles and demonyms is actually pretty annoying for people who aren't used to dealing with articles at all.

因为中国人不用冠词,“一个美国人/一个德国人/一个韩国人/一个意大利人”这样说是可以的。理解冠词和特定称谓词的用法对根本不习惯使用冠词的人来说太令人火大了。

monfreremonfrere 12 points·5 days ago

Oh god now I realize I have no idea why “a Chinese” is wrong but “an American” is OK

OK to say “I am a(n) __”: Korean American Italian German Russian Egyptian Indian Pakistani?

Not OK: Chinese Japanese British Polish Vietnamese French Dutch

I guess it just depends on the suffix?

哦,天哪,我才发觉我竟不知道为什么说“a Chinese”是错误的,而说“an American”是可以的。

这样说是可以的:“I am a(n) __(我是一个)”:Korean(韩国人) 、American(美国人) 、Italian(意大利人)、German(德国人)、Russian(俄罗斯人)、Egyptian(埃及人)、Indian(印度人)、Pakistani(巴基斯坦人)。

这样说不可以:(我是一个)Chinese(中国人)、Japanese(日本人)、British(英国人)、Polish(波兰人)、Vietnamese(越南人)、French(法国人)、Dutch(荷兰人)。

我想这取决于后缀?

ObsidianOrangutan 7 points·4 days ago·edited 4 days ago

It's actually a cool thing about language in general. When people learn languages later in life they tend to simplify the grammar and over apply rules. By contrast when people learn languages young they internalize all the weird exceptions to rules and patterns. This is also why languages that are learned by a lot of people (like standard English and mandarin) are more regular than smaller languages. For example modern English dropped a lot of Anglo Saxon's additional tenses when the vikings invaded and settled because lots of adult Norse learned it. By contrast there's a language spoken by a tiny group of people in the arctic circle which has no rules for plurals every single noun is pluralised differently. Which you can only sustain with a small all native speaking population. (Most of this is cribbed from the great podcast Lexicon Valley though I may have misremebered some details.)

总的来说语言其实是件很酷的事。当人们在以后的生活中学习语言时,他们倾向于简化语法,过度运用规则。相比之下,当人们在年幼时学习语言,他们就会内化规则和模式中所有奇怪的例外。这也是为什么有很多人学习的语言(像标准英语和普通话)比小语种更有规律可循的原因。例如,当维京人(8到11世纪驾船劫掠北欧和西欧海岸的斯堪的纳维亚人)入侵并定居下来时,现代英语就放弃了许多盎格鲁·撒克逊语的附加时态,因为许多成年挪威人(古斯堪的纳维亚人)学会了这一点。相比之下,在北极圈中的一小群人说的一种语言,没有复数的规则,每个单数单词的复数形式变化规则都不相同,只能靠一小群全部英语为母语的人来继承它。(尽管我可能记错了一些细节,大部分都是从播客词汇谷抄来的。)

GuessImStuckWithThis Great Britain 10 points·4 days ago

There is actually no grammar rule that says it's wrong. It just instinctively sounds weird to a native speaker's ear however technically it's still grammatically correct

实际上没有语法规则说这用法是错误的,只不过在英语为母语的人耳中本能会听起来怪怪的,但严格来讲,这仍旧是符合正确语法的。

shishiqiushi 5 points·4 days ago

It's because Chinese is only ever an adjective but American can be a noun too. I think it comes down to the suffix -ese being typically used in adjectives. You cannot say "a British" either because the ending -ish makes it an adjective.

这是因为Chinese只能是形容词,而American也可以是名词。我认为这归结于后缀为-ese的词通常为形容词,你也不能说“a British”,因为后缀-ish使它变成一个形容词了。

GuessImStuckWithThis Great Britain8 points·4 days ago

Nope. Chinese is used as a noun when you refer to the language. You don't say "he speaks the Chinese language" you say "he speaks Chinese".

不是的。当你指中文这门语言时,“Chinese”被用作名词。你不会说“他会汉语语言(the Chinese language)”,而是说“他会汉语”。

It's just that instinctively as a native speaker words that end in "-ese" or "ish" or generally with an s sound seem like they should be adjectives because they just sound wrong as nouns. However it's more about usage rather than grammar.

这完全出于本能,作为一个母语者,那些以“-ese”或者“ish”结尾以及以“s”音结尾的单词,它们看起来像是形容词,但那只是因为它们听起来不像是名词。然而,相比于语法,更多的是其用法。

buz1984 4 points·4 days ago·edited 4 days ago

The instinct is to distinguish between singular and plural. "The Koreans" refers to a group of people and you drop the "s" to refer to one person. "The Chinese" is plural but there is no "s" to drop so to make this singular you always add a singular noun such as "person".

I don't know if this is formalized in grammar but it seems to be consistently applied by native speakers.

所谓的本能是为了区分单数和复数。“The Koreans”指一群人,去掉“s”则指代一个人。“The Chinese”是复数,但是它没有“s”,所以为了表明单数,你经常会加上一个单数名词例如“person”。我不确定这在语法上是否是正式形式,但是母语者似乎常这样应用。

pixelschatten 7 points·4 days ago

[Oh god now I realize I have no idea why “a Chinese” is wrong but “an American” is OK]

The sibilant final ending is the reason why you think it is incorrect.(链接补充说明——https://www.slideshare.net/dialect/ethnonyms)

However it is perfectly fine to say "a Chinese" or "a Japanese" or even "a Swiss." Here's a list of demonyms as taught by Cambridge if you need a source.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/grammar/british-grammar/people-and-places/nationalities-languages-countries-and-regions

[哦,天哪,我才发觉我竟不知道为什么说“a Chinese”是错误的,而说“an American”是可以的。]

单词结尾发出的咝咝声是你为什么觉得它不正确的原因。然而,说"a Chinese" 或者 "a Japanese" 甚至是 "a Swiss"是完全可以的。如果你需要来源的话,这是剑桥出的一份民族称谓词列表。(下为链接)(https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/grammar/british-grammar/people-and-places/nationalities-languages-countries-and-regions)

monfreremonfrere 2 points·4 days ago·edited 3 days ago

Very interesting! Your first lix appears to contradict the second lix regarding the grammaticality of “a Chinese” though

这非常有趣!虽然你的第一个链接和第二个链接,在关于“a Chinese”的语法性部分上相互矛盾。

pixelschatten 2 points·4 days ago

I think the gist the linguist was trying to get across was that the perceived grammaticality of demonyms like "a Chinese" for native speakers increases as one moves to reference larger groups. However that isn't to say the singular form is incorrect.

我认为语言学家想要传达出的要点是,当用one去指代一个更大的群体时,对英语母语者来说,像用“a Chinese”来指代(一个中国人)的这种区域居民称谓词的语法性用法就会增加。然而,这并不是说单数形式(Chinese person)就是错的。

I was able to find some recent examples of the singular form of -ese demonyms in the New York Times. It's difficult to narrow down "a Chinese" due to the limitations of search and the popularity of China as a topic but I did find "an ethnic Chinese" in these articles: [1] [2] [3].

"a Japanese" yields this article.

"a Portuguese" can be found here.

我在《纽约时报》上找到了一些近期的关于-ese类区域居民称谓词的单数形式的例子。由于一些搜索的限制和“china”作为主题的干扰,很难缩小范围来查找这类例子,但是我还是找到了如下例子:

这篇文章中出现的"an ethnic Chinese(一个华裔)" : [1] [2] [3].

这篇文章中出现的"a Japanese(一个日本人)" ;

"a Portuguese(一个葡萄牙人)" 能在这篇文章中找到。

Somewhat older but I did find "a Taiwanese" mentioned in these articles from the 90s: [1] [2].

And finally here's both "a Swiss" AND "a Japanese" in this article.

我在一些比较老的例如90年代的文章里有看到"a Taiwanese(一个台湾人)"这样的例子。最后这篇文章里既有"a Swiss(一个瑞士人)" 又有 "a Japanese"这两个用法。

(原回复中有很多相关链接,感兴趣自寻原网址)

xrukiye 2 points·4 days ago

I’m not really a native speaker but I have a pretty high level and I never realized it’s wrong to say it. You opened my eyes

我其实不是一个母语者,但是我的水平相当高,且我从没觉得那样说是错的,你真是大开我的眼界。

yijiujiu 1 point·4 days ago

My theory is that it has to do with racism. Asian groups have been subject to racism, so placing an emphasis on them being a person (person focused language) is important. Kind of like the difference between "jew" and "Jewish person".

我的理论是这肯定是跟种族主义有关。亚裔人群一直深受种族主义的影响,所以强调他们是什么人(用person看是哪门语言)很重要。有点像犹太人(jew)和犹太族人(jewish person)这两种说法之间的差异。

TheGentlemanK 3 points·4 days ago

To counter that a French, a Dutch and a Spanish all sound wrong to the ear as well without have the excuse of racism.

作为反驳,如果不以种族主义因素为由,“a French(一个法国人)”、“a Dutch(一个荷兰人)”和“a Spanish(一个西班牙人)”全都听起来怪怪的。

yijiujiu 1 point·4 days ago

Yeah, my theory only goes so far. Probably the underlying sounds of the names

嗯,我的理论仅限于此。可能是这些称谓词的潜在发音吧。

monfreremonfrere 1 point·4 days ago

Wouldn't this predict the opposite outcome? "She is a Chinese" sounds more racist/impolite than "She is a Chinese person".

这不恰巧证明与之相反的观点吗?“她是个中国人(a Chinese)”听起来比“她是个(a Chinese person)”更种族歧视/粗鲁。

yijiujiu 1 point·4 days ago

You're restating what I said. "a Chinese" sounds racist, and racism is usually dehumanizing. "a Chinese person" is less racist, just as "jew" is seen as a derision, while "Jewish person" is fine

你在重复我说的话,“a Chinese”听起来种族歧视,且种族主义通常是反人性的。“a Chinese person”没那么种族主义,就如“jew”被视为笑话(贬义用法),而“jewish person”就行。

monfreremonfrere 2 points·4 days ago

Exactly. And yet Chinese people who learned English as a second language often say "a Chinese" instead of "a Chinese pe

没错。然而把英语作为第二语言学习的中国人常说“a Chinese”而不是“a Chinese person”。

yijiujiu 1 point·4 days ago

Yeah, but as pointed out elsewhere, the logic makes sense

是,但就其他网友指出的一些方面,这个逻辑也有些道理。

ratsta 1 point·4 days ago

Struck me as odd too but I started using it myself and now I'm comfortable with it.

我也觉得那种用法很奇怪,但在我自己也用过之后,我现在觉得这说法听着挺舒服的。

metheviewer South Africa 0 points·5 days ago

Probably the same place they learn ”colleague-er"

或许他们也是从那儿学会了“同事-儿(colleague-er)”这种用法。

123eyeball 6 points·4 days ago

That's just 北京话 /s

那只是北京话。

Hautamaki Canada 6 points·4 days ago

There is an actual grammar rule for this which sadly enough not even many English teachers know.

The rule is this: if a nationality ends with a /s/ /z/ /sh/ /ch/ or soft /g/ (like the second g in garage) then it cannot be pluralized simply by adding an 's' or 'es' as other nationalities that end with vowel or other consonant sounds can. For example compare 'American-Americans' to 'French-Frenches'. We simply never say 'Frenches' or 'Englishes' or 'Japaneses' though we have no problem with 'Americans' or 'Germans' or 'Finns'. Now with European nationalities it's often the convention to just add 'men' or 'women' to the end; 'Frenchmen' 'Englishwomen' etc. But when it comes to Asian peoples this comes off as colonial and frankly a bit racist--we simply don't ever say 'Chinamen' anymore and even 'Englishmen' and 'Frenchwomen' and so on have sort of fallen more and more out of common usage over the years.

事实上这用法确实涉及一个语法规则,非常悲哀的是,有很多英语老师甚至都不知道这语法规则。

规则是这样的:如果表示国家的称谓词是以/s/、/z/、/sh/、/ch/或轻音/g/(像garage第二个g的发音)结尾的,其复数形式不能像其他以元音音或其他辅音音结尾的国家称谓词那样简单地加个's' 或 'es'就行。举个栗子,将'American-Americans' 与 'French-Frenches'进行比较,我们从来不会说'Frenches' 或 'Englishes' 或 'Japaneses' ,但我们觉得说'Americans' 或 'Germans' 或 'Finns(芬兰人)'没有任何语法问题。好了,欧洲各国的称谓词的(复数)惯例是在后面加上“men”或“women”:如'Frenchmen' 和'Englishwomen' 等。但当涉及到亚洲人时,这是殖民时期的产物,坦率地说,这确实有一点种族主义。我们不再说'Chinamen' ,甚至不会说 'Englishmen' 和 'Frenchwomen' 等。这些词近年来越来越淡出人们的习惯用语了。

Now the consequence here is that since there is no good way to make a plural out of 'Chinese' we do not use 'Chinese' or 'Japanese' or 'Vietnamese' and so on as nouns--we use them only as adjectives (except when we're referring to the languages).

现在的结果是这样的,因为没有什么好的方式来表示'Chinese'的复数形式,且我们不用 'Chinese' or 'Japanese' or 'Vietnamese' 等作名词,——所以我们只用它作形容词(除了当这些词指的是其国语言这种情况)。

Therefore when someone says 'As a Canadian' this is grammatically correct because 'Canadian' can serve as a noun meaning 'Canadian person'; but when someone says 'As a Chinese' this is grammatically incorrect because 'Chinese' can only be used as an adjective (or it could mean the language 'Chinese' but that would be equally wrong obviously) therefore the phrase is grammatically equivalent to 'As a happy' or 'As a tall'. That is why there's still a need to add a noun at the end 'As a Chinese person' or whatever in this phrase but there is no need to say 'As an American person' or any other nationality that can be easily pluralized and thus can be used as either a noun or an adjective.

因此,当有人说'As a Canadian(作为一个加拿大人)' ,这在语法上是正确的,因为'Canadian'作为名词时意为“加拿大人(Canadian person)”。但当有人说'As a Chinese',这在语法上是错误的,因为'Chinese'只能用作形容词(或可以意为语言'中文' ,但这明显也是错误的),所以,这个短语在语法上等同于'As a happy(作为一个高兴的)' 或 'As a tall(作为一个高的)'这种用法,这就是为什么仍需要在它后面加一个名词 'As a Chinese person' 或其他任何名词,但是没有必要说'As an American person',或其他任何能简单变为复数这样既可作名词也可做形容词的国家称谓词也跟'American'的用法一样。

shinadoll 13 points·5 days ago·edited 4 days ago

My guess is that was the same class where “have a rest” was introduced.

我想这用法出处跟说“have a rest”是一样的。

oGsBumder 3 points·4 days ago

Er… that phrase is pretty normal isn't it? At least it is here in the UK.

呃...这短语不是很常见吗?至少在英国很常见。

ratsta 1 point·4 days ago

Same here in Australia.

After all this hard work studying I'm going to have a rest.

在澳大利亚也很常见。毕竟在这么努力学习后,我要休息一下(“have a rest”)。

yijiujiu 1 point·4 days ago

Depends where you're from. They say "have a (verb)" a lot when we might say "take a (verb)" or some other phrase. Have a try have a look have a rest. They sound a little off though they appear fine. I guess if say "give it a try" or "try it"; "take a look" but I sometimes joke with "have a look-see"; "take a rest" or "take a break"

取决于你来自哪里。他们经常说"have a +动词(verb)" ,而我们则会说"take a (verb)"或者其他短语。像Have a try(试一下)、have a look(看一下)、have a rest(休息一下)等。虽然它们看起来没错,但是听起来有点不对劲。我想应该要这么说:"give it a try" 或 "try it","take a look",但我有时开玩笑会说"have a look-see", "take a rest" 或 "take a break"。

bigbosslaowai Best Korea 12 points·4 days ago

As a Chinaman...

作为一个中国佬...

kimoriboy 1 point·4 days ago

This sounded wrong to my American ear as well but I have heard the same expression as well as 'a Japanese' in China Japan and Indonesia — so it is a fairly widespread phenomenon.

这在我这个美国人的耳中听起来也是怪怪的,但我也听过同样的表达,像在中国、日本、印度尼西亚'a Japanese'的表达——因此,这是一个相当普遍的现象。

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