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正在阅读:为什么西方对中国的看法总是充斥着傲慢与偏见?

为什么西方对中国的看法总是充斥着傲慢与偏见?

Why is the West’s view of China always full of arrogance and prejudice?

龙腾网/jiangye111 2018-08-03 17:03:32 中国西方看法
68899 13

如果“中国人对西方的看法总是充斥着傲慢和偏见”,那么,西方对中国的看法也充斥着傲慢和偏见,还有什么好奇怪的吗?并且,在过去的200年里,清朝和中华人民共和国对西方有着全面的敌对关系,只有中华民国时期对西方可以说是友好的,所以大多数时候中国对西方是敌对的。你指望西方对充满敌意的中国友好吗?

正文翻译

Why is the West’s view of China always full of arrogance and prejudice?

为什么西方对中国的看法总是充斥着傲慢与偏见?

评论翻译

Alan Chiu, I read many modern Chinese history books 我读过很多现代中国历史书

Answered Sat

How about “Chinese view of the West was always full of arrogance and prejudice”, so is it any wonder that West’s view of China was full of arrogance and prejudice as well? Also for the past 200 years, Qing dynasty and PRC had an overall hostile relationship towards the West, only ROC period can be said to be friendly towards the West, so the majority of time China was hostile towards the West. Did you expect the West to be friendly towards a hostile China?

The West actually had a very positive image of China from Marco Polo’s descxtion of a strong, prosperous China under Mongol rule. So it was not that the case that the West had a problem with a strong China. European intellectual’s such as Voltaire wrote highly of Chinese culture. That started to change in Qing dynasty, which treated the West as barbarians when China came into direct contact with the West. During the Macartney Embassy - Wikipedia, the mission observed how ignorant and pompous Chinese officials were, and the cities were filthy without sewage or running water. And the emperor of China asked the British ambassador to kneel before him. Why would the representative of the British Empire, arguably the strongest nation at that time, submit to China? This is the first obvious sign of conflict to come. And we all know that the First Opium War of 1840 showed which nation was stronger.

Did China wake up and catch up? Let’s see, half a century later, in 1895, China lost the First Sino-Japanese War decisively. Japan was in a similar situation to China in 19th century, but it modernized in earnest, and first beat China in 1895 then Russia in 1905. The West had a positive view of Japan before WWII. So it was not that the West couldn’t accept a powerful nation in Asia.

Still, Chinese called Westerners ‘foreign devils’(洋鬼子). The Boxer Rebellion could be said to a massive terrorist attack against foreigners and anything foreign. German and Japanese diplomats were killed against international protocol to protect diplomats, and the Legation in Peking was besieged for months. Eight Nation Alliance was formed to save their diplomats from slaughter. This was not exactly the behavior that will give others positive impressions, isn’t it?

Fast forward to WWII. China joined the Allies to fought against Japan and won. Chinese Exclusion Act was repealed, and unequal treaties were abolished. Republic of China became the member of the UN Security Council. The relationship between China and the West improved during this period.

However, CPC won the Civil War in 1949 and fought against the West in the Korean War. Did that improve the image of China? Matthew Ridgway was UN commander-in-chief after General MacArthur, and his memoir mentioned how communists had no regard for the life of communist troops or POW in a negative way. If you compare that with how CPC portrayed the Korean War, you can see that CPC praised sacrificing one’s life for communism; the same events were judged according to conflicting values, and that is one of the reasons. The Vietnam War divided the USA, but it reinforced the idea that communists are the enemy and devious.

Mao’s China saw the USA as the enemy until PRC established diplomatic relationship with USA in 1979. Deng’s Reform and Opening Up started with learning from the West, but with the 1989 crackdown, China again saw the West as dangerous.

In summary, Chinese had different values and culture from the West, and the continued conflict, both political and cultural, between the two deters understanding and appreciation of each other. This is not to say that the West didn’t have its share of cultural superiority and racism, but on balance I want to point out it’s not a one-sided story. China contributed its share to that attitude.

如果“中国人对西方的看法总是充斥着傲慢和偏见”,那么,西方对中国的看法也充斥着傲慢和偏见,还有什么好奇怪的吗?并且,在过去的200年里,清朝和中华人民共和国对西方有着全面的敌对关系,只有中华民国时期对西方可以说是友好的,所以大多数时候中国对西方是敌对的。你指望西方对充满敌意的中国友好吗?

事实上,自马可波罗描述了一个蒙古统治下的强大、繁荣的中国以来,西方对中国一直有一个非常正面的印象。因此,问题并不是西方反对强大的中国。伏尔泰等欧洲知识分子对中国文化的评价很高。这种情况在清朝开始发生变化,当中国与西方直接接触时,清朝视西方为蛮夷。在马戛尔尼访华期间,代表团观察到中国官员是多么无知和傲慢,并且城市肮脏,没有排污系统或自来水。中国皇帝要求英国大使在他面前下跪。作为当时最强大的国家,大英帝国的代表为什么要向中国屈服呢?这是冲突即将到来的第一个明显迹象。我们都知道1840年的第一次鸦片战争表明了哪个国家更强大。

中国觉醒并奋起直追了吗?让我们看看,半个世纪后的1895年,中国彻底输掉了第一场中日战争。19世纪的日本与中国处境相似,但日本真正实现了现代化,1895年首次打败中国,1905年又打败俄罗斯。西方对日本在二战前的看法是积极的。因此,并不是说西方不能接受一个强大的亚洲国家。

尽管如此,中国人还是把西方人叫做“洋鬼子”。义和团运动可以说是对外国人和所有外国的大规模恐怖袭击。德国和日本的外交官被杀害,违反了保护外交官的国际协议,并且派驻北京的大使馆被围困了好几个月。八国联军的成立是为了防止他们的外交官被屠杀。这并不是那种会给别人带来正面印象的行为,不是吗?

时间快进到二战。中国加入同盟国,与日本作战并取得胜利。排华法案被废除,不平等条约被废除。中华萌国成为联合国安理会成员。在此期间,中国与西方的关系得到了改善。

186时代的中国视美国为敌人,直到1979年中国与美国建立外交关系。286的改革开放始于向西方学习。

综上所述,中国人与西方有着不同的价值观和文化,双方之间的政治和文化上的持续冲突阻碍了彼此的理解和欣赏。这并不是说西方没有文化优越感和种族主义,但总的来说,我想指出这不是一个当方面的故事。中国对这种(傲慢与偏见的)心态也作出了自己的贡献。

Sam Teppe

Sun · 1 upvote

The differences are, no matter how arrogance and prejudice we Chinese view the west, WE LEAVE THEM ALONE, but the West never leave us alone! Had they left us alone, who care what they have thought of us! All the problems and conflicts occurred later are because they don’t leave us alone.

OK, we treated the West as barbarians; our officials were ignorant and pompous; and the cities were filthy without sewage or running water; our emperor asked the British ambassador to kneel before him; you West did not like all these, why didn’t you GET OUT!??? Why did you sell drugs to our people and wage wars against us? We never invited you West to our country and we never wanted to trade with you, why don’t you just leave and go home?!?!

How about “Chinese view of the West was always full of arrogance and prejudice”, so is it any wonder that West’s view of China was full of arrogance and prejudice as well?

“如果‘中国人对西方的看法总是充斥着傲慢和偏见’,那么,西方对中国的看法也充斥着傲慢和偏见,还有什么好奇怪的吗?”

不同之处在于,无论我们中国人对西方的看法多么傲慢和偏见,我们都不会把他们怎么样,但西方从来不会放过我们!如果他们不干涉我们,有谁在乎他们对我们的看法呢!后来发生的所有问题和冲突,都是因为他们干涉了我们。

我们把西方当作蛮夷;我们的官员无知自大;城市肮脏不堪,没有排污系统和自来水;我们的皇帝让英国大使在他面前下跪;你们西方人不喜欢这些,那你们为什么不滚回去呢?你们为什么要卖毒品给我们的人民,发动对我们的战争?我们从来没有邀请你们来我们的国家,我们也从来不想和你们做生意,你们为什么不离开并回去呢?

Alan Chiu

Sun · 1 upvote

China is in Asia and had no blue water navy until about 2 decades ago, so it was incapable of waging war against Europe or America.

中国在亚洲,并且直到大约20年前才拥有蓝水海军,所以它没有能力发动针对欧洲或美国的战争。

Sam Teppe

Sun

Alan Chiu , what are you trying to say?

Alan Chiu,你到底想表达什么?

Alan Chiu

Mon

We don’t know whether China would have waged war against the West instead of LEAVE THEM ALONE, because China had been incapable of doing it. History might have been different if China had the capability first instead of the West: i.e. China might have waged war against the West; it’s just the same history with the role reversed. So to conclude there is something about China’s attitude is ‘LEAVE THEM ALONE’ is baseless.

我们不好说中国是否会对西方发动战争,而不是不干涉他们,因为当时的中国并没有发动战争的能力。如果是中国先有了这种能力而不是西方,那么历史可能会不一样:也就是说,中国可能早就对西方发动战争了;还是同样的历史,但其中双方的角色却互换了。因此,总而言之,说中国的态度是“不干涉他们”是毫无根据的。

Weiwen Zhang

Mon

Funny. Do you have idea that how powerful battleship fleets that the ming dynasty once had? Especially during ming chengzu the yongle emperor’s time?

Hundreds of years ago, in ming dynasty China was far more advanced than Europe and even the Ottomans. Why didn't China become a colonial master?

Ming Dynasty Zheng He went on huge shipping expeditions and could have done what the Europeans did to the New World. instead of robbing gold from the weaker countries like what the Spaniards did to the Aztecs, Zheng He did the opposite by presenting gifts of gold to the countries his ships dropped by. Today, the new world has become a extension of old Europe. China is still China.

Say that again? We weren't able to do what?

If we Chinese really acted like the Europeans. Nowadays countries in southern east wouldn't have been existed.

搞笑。你知道明朝曾经拥有多么强大的舰队吗?尤其是明成祖永乐年间?

几百年前的明代,中国远比欧洲甚至奥斯曼人先进。为什么中国没有成为殖民地的主人?

明朝的郑和曾进行过大规模的航海探险,他本可以采取欧洲人对新大陆所做的那种做法。郑和没有像西班牙人掠夺阿兹特克人那样从较弱的国家掠夺黄金,相反,他把黄金赠给了他的船队经过的国家。今天,新世界已成为旧欧洲的延伸。但中国仍然是中国。

你再说一遍?我们没有这个能力?

如果我们中国人真的像欧洲人一样行事。今天东南亚的那些国家早就不存在了。

Alan Chiu

Tue

Zheng He didn’t know the earth is round, while Columbus knew that and thought he could reach India by sailing West. Had Zheng He knew the earth is round, he might consider finding a new route to Europe or India by sailing east. The lack of knowledge and imagination is as important as having a fleet. Zheng He sailed to land already known to China, so it was not exploration. You have to ask why China as a nation was not interested in exploration over the sea, while Europeans did.

郑和不知道地球是圆的,而哥伦布知道这一点,并认为他可以通过向西航行到达印度。如果郑和知道地球是圆的,他可能会考虑通过向东航行找到一条通往欧洲或印度的新航线。对知识和想象力的缺乏和拥有一支舰队同样重要。郑和远航到中国已经知道的土地,所以这不算探索。你必须问一问,为什么中国作为一个国家对海洋探索不感兴趣,而欧洲人却感兴趣。

Sam Teppe

Mon

Alan Chiu ,Please base your points on facts or something has happened, not something unknown or might have had happened.

The facts are: It’s the West that waged wars on China first, they are the ones that not leave China alone.

“China might have waged war against the West; it’s just the same history with the role reversed.”———————-This is not fact based point, but just your own speculation for the past.

Alan Chiu,请把你的观点建立在事实或已经发生的事情的基础上,而不是未知事件,或者“也许已经怎么样了”。

事实就是:西方首先向中国发动了战争,它们是那些干涉中国的国家。

“中国可能早就对西方发动战争了;还是同样的历史,但其中双方的角色却互换了”——这不是基于事实的观点,而是你自己对过去的猜想。

Alan Chiu

Mon

YOU are making the claim that China had LEAVE THEM ALONE attitude, when in fact China had no other choice(waging war against the West), so your point is moot. The fact was China COULDN’T otherwise. Your descxtion implied that China had the moral high ground in the first place, when history showed China did the same thing when it actually could.

你是在说中国拥有“不干涉他国”的心态,而事实上是因为中国没有其他选择(对西方发动战争),所以你的观点是没有实际意义的。事实就是,中国当时没有这个能力。你的描述暗示,中国一开始就拥有道德制高点,而历史表明,中国在它有这个能力的时候也做了同样的事情。

Sam Teppe

Tue

Alan Chiu, I am not sure what do you mean that China had no other choice waging war against the West. Why should China waged war against the West? Chinese emperor clearly told the West that China did not want their overproduced industrial products, China did not want to do business with the West.

It’s the West insisted continue to buy China’s tea. China requested hard currency-silver for the payment. When the West ran out of silver, they started selling illegal drugs, an action no country in the world would tolerate!

When China burned their drug, the West waged wars against China.

I don’t think China would force anyone to trade with it in its 5000 years history, China have never sold illegal drugs to any country. China never did those criminal things as the West did to China. You are wrong, Sir.

Alan Chiu,我不知道你说的“中国没有其他选择(对西方发动战争)”是什么意思。为什么中国要向西方开战?中国皇帝明确地告诉西方,中国不想要他们生产过剩的工业产品,中国不想和西方做生意。

是西方坚持继续购买中国的茶叶。中国要求用硬通货白银付款。当西方国家用光白银时,他们就开始贩卖非法毒品,这是世界上任何国家都无法容忍的行为!

当中国烧了他们的毒品,西方就发动了对中国的战争。

我认为在其5000年的历史中,中国不会强迫任何国家与之进行贸易,中国从未向任何国家出售过非法毒品。中国从来没有像西方对中国那样做过那些罪恶的事情。你错了,先生。

Sam Teppe

Tue

Alan Chiu, there are 2 major differences between Qing/China and the West:

When Qing/China acquired any new territory, the rulers would pay great respects to the local cultures. The Emperors would marry women from the local population.

When Qing/China acquired China, like all other traditional outsiders who invaded China, the Qing rulers moved their entire family and army INSIDE China. Yes they would took the China’s treasure and enjoy the China’s wealth, but the wealth and treasures were STAYING in China’s land.

When the outside rulers were kicked out after ruling China for a couple of hundreds years, Chinese just got the treasures and wealth back. The treasure and wealth were just from the left hand to the right hand, because they stayed within the land. The new ruler could still use the treasure and wealth to rebuild the country.

However, the West behaved totally different, not only they paid no respect to the local culture and people, but also MOVE all the treasures and wealth from OUT of China’s land to their own homeland. By the time they were kicked out of China, there was no treasures and wealth left. No matter who the new rulers were, there was not money left to rebuild the country.

So Qing/China were actually the UNIFIERS, if you remember that in China’s history, the unifiers were always warriors, acquiring more territories, such as China’s first emperor, Qin Shi Huang. Whereas the West are just barbaric robbers.

Alan Chiu,清代与西方有两个主要的不同点:

1、当清朝/中国获得任何新的领土时,统治者会非常尊重当地的文化。皇帝会娶当地居民的妇女为妻。

2、当清朝/中国获得中国时,就像其他入侵中国的传统外来者一样,清朝统治者将整个家族和军队迁入中国。是的,他们会拿走中国的宝藏,享受中国的财富,但宝藏和财富却依然留在中国的土地上。

当外界的统治者在统治中国几百年后被赶出国门时,中国人就又夺回了自己的宝藏和财富。财富和宝藏只是从左手递到了右手,因为他们都在中国国内。新的统治者仍然可以用这些宝藏和财富来重建国家。

然而,西方的行为完全不同,他们不仅不尊重当地的文化和人民,还把所有的宝藏和财富从中国的土地上掠夺到了自己的国家。当他们被赶出中国时,已经没有什么宝藏和财富了。不管新统治者是谁,都没有钱来重建这个国家。

所以清朝/中国实际上是统一者,如果你还记得,在中国历史上,统一者总是勇士,获得更多的领土,比如中国的第一任皇帝秦始皇。而西方只是野蛮的强盗。

Sthitapragnya Deshpande, worked at China 在中国工作

Answered 21h ago

Not just China.

The West's view of any country is usually tinted with arrogance and prejudice. So it is not just China. India, most African countries (despite them having been wealthy just 1000 years back), Arabs (despite them having invented most of the algebra that is used by todays computers and finance professionals in new York and London) all are seen from the same view point.

In the case of China, it is for the above reason PLUS the fact that China pulls down the western myth of exceptionalism - thinking that western people are exceptional and hence developed / well off. this makes China a bigger threat to them.

There are 3 ways in which the west can react to this - 

1) Try to improve their own systems and refocus their attention on the more pressing needs of their people. 

2) Collaborate with China to achieve the above. 

3) Pull China down - they cannot do it physically as the Chinese government is highly protective of its people and companies. Hence the west does this through its media. Often this includes media that sounds Chinese, but is registered as a media website in Singapore / Taiwan / Hong Kong (Wtf would someone sitting in Singapore know of what happens in Chinese towns and villages where he / she has never been?!) .

They have (sadly) chosen 3 - hence your observation.

This is not uniform - Germany has always resisted the above approach - they have chosen 2 - hence they have prospered through German collaborations in China (most of our elevators and high speed rail coaches started off as German Chinese collaborations). There are a few other similar countries.

Incidentally, USA too fell in this category from the 1980s to 2010, It now is making a noise, but I don't see Chinese imports to USA having reduced. The aisles of Walmarts in the United States are still fully stacked with "Made in China" items - and the White house souvenirs continue to have a "Made in China" stamp on their base!

And oh yes - the computers that we all use in various forms and cellphone are still made in two regions - China and Taiwan. Mostly in Shenzhen, China or Guangdong, China (Though both are right next to each other).

不只是中国。

西方对任何国家的看法通常都带有傲慢和偏见。所以不只是中国。印度、大多数非洲国家(尽管他们在1000年前富裕过)、阿拉伯国家(尽管他们发明了当今计算机和金融专业人员在纽约和伦敦使用的大部分代数学科)都被西方以相同的眼光来看待。

就中国而言,正是由于上述原因,加上中国推翻了西方例外论的神话——认为西方人是例外的,因而发达/富裕。这使得中国对他们构成了更大的威胁。

西方对此有三种反应方式:

1、努力改进自己的体制,把注意力重新集中在其人民更紧迫的需求上。

2、与中国合作实现上述目标。

3、摧毁中国——由于中国政府对人民和企业的高度保护,他们无法在物理上做到这一点。因此西方通过媒体来做此事。这经常还包括听起来像是中国的,但却是在新加坡/台湾/香港注册的一个媒体网站(qtmd,呆在新加坡的人会知道在他/她从来没有去过的中国的城镇和乡村里发生了什么事?!)

他们(令人悲哀地)选择了第三种方式——因此你注意到了傲慢与偏见。

但也不是一概如此——德国就一直反对上述方式——他们选择了第二种方式——因此他们通过德国在中国开展的合作而获得繁荣发展(我们大多数的电梯和客运高铁都源于德国与中国的合作)。还有一些其他类似的国家。

顺便说一句,从上世纪80年代到2010年,美国也属于这一类国家,而它现在正在制造噪音,但我没有看到中国对美国的出口减少。在美国,沃尔玛的货架上仍然摆满了“中国制造”的商品,而白宫纪念品的基座上仍印有“中国制造”的标记。

哦,是的——我们使用的各种类型的电脑和手机仍然是在中国(大陆)和台湾两个地区生产的。大部分都产于中国的深圳或广东(尽管两地紧挨着)。

ltaaaTxt

Culum Pugh, Managing Director (2014-present) 常务董事(2014年至今)

Answered Fri

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION AND WILL PROBABLY NOT REFLECT THE VIEWS OF ALL OTHER WESTERNERS.

I thought this post needs an answer from a westerner, since your question is indeed asking about the West’s views.

Before you ask why, ask if.

I see way more provocative questions about the West from a China perspective, and content which I would deem as China-supremacist than I do that reflects any kind of Western arrogance towards of China.

Frankly it seems like for whatever reason, a lot of Chinese have a chip on their shoulder about the West and cannot wait to rant about it online, not just on Quora but on other forms of social media.

I mean, this question itself is already phrased without neutral language and could be deemed to be insincere.

Personally, I don’t really have any arrogance towards China or the Chinese, but I honestly am beginning to see the Chinese as increasingly arrogant. By this, I mean that there seems to be a moral high ground being occupied by many Chinese Quorans on the implied premise that they have been wronged by the West and need to get their own back.

I seriously cannot comprehend this. I do not see the Chinese as some oppressed group of people - as the world’s largest country, this is extremely unlikely anyway.

Most anti-Chinese sentiment online these days generally comes from uneducated morons, and is just as likely to come from the West as it will from other Asian people.

Two issues that have come up recently where China has been at odds with the West are the trade war with the US and the scandal in Australia where there were allegations that Chinese business interests were making donations to Australian politicians.

Although I am well versed in economics, I am not familiar with the ins and outs of the trade war but I do understand that Trump instigated his tariffs on Chinese imports in response to China not following WTO rules. If this is indeed the case, then I think the US is totally in the right. Correspondingly, I cannot comprehend how any Chinese can logically believe that China can not operate as a free trading economy, not allow foreign investment on the same terms as other countries allow its capital in, not allow its currency to float freely, and expect no consequences from major economic powers like the US. I mean, if that’s not arrogance I don’t know what is.

Secondly, I really did not appreciate the claims of some Chinese of the Australian Government being “arrogant” when it emerged that it took a dim view of Australian politicians accepting donations from Chinese business interests. China should know as well as any country that its political sovereignty is paramount and sacrosanct and thus should, if anything, respect Australia for defending its own interests against another, far larger country. How is that arrogant? I guess it is if you believe that a smaller and less powerful country should know its place in the world.

Having said that, some people out there still bitch and moan about the humiliating treaties signed after the Opium Wars as if they had some sentimental connection to it through their ancestors going back god knows how many generations, and as if it wasn’t standard practice in those days for countries who lost wars to sign peace treaties. I wonder if they fount the treaty of Versailles humiliating? This seems to me totally at odds with the “arrogance” that Australia displayed by defending its sovereignty.

I am sorry, but it often seems like the common denominator of the Chinese argument in this dispute is that China is always right. In all fairness though, this mindset generally permeates most non-Western cultures and indeed some Western cultures too.

I know that this spiel may not exactly answer your question but the beauty of the free internet is that I can say whatever I want. Not wanting to be a ranting lunatic, I took the opportunity to disagree with the premise of your question. Not to put you down, but to introduce to your mind another perspective which may help you to understand why other viewpoints may not coincide with yours.

Just for the record, I am not anti-China, and certainly not anti-Chinese per se, but I feel there is too much one-way traffic on Quora from Chinese attacking the West and I am just sick of the hostility, so I want to defend my side, by presenting another perspective.

The fact that (as I see it, I could be wrong) most anti-Chinese sentiment comes from uneducated hicks, while the anti-Western sentiment seems to come from more educated people, says to me that a lot of it is based on emotion.

免责声明:这是我个人的观点,很可能不会反映所有其他西方人的观点。

我认为这个问题需要一个西方人来回答,因为你的问题实际上是在询问西方的观点。

在你问“为什么”之前,先问一问“假如”。

我看到了更多从中国的角度提出的关于西方的挑衅性问题,以及那些我认为是中国至上主义的内容,上述内容都多于西方对中国的傲慢态度。

坦率地说,似乎不管出于什么原因,很多中国人对西方愤愤不平,他们迫不及待地在网上对西方大加指责,不仅仅是在Quora上,在其他社交媒体上也是如此。

我的意思是,这个问题本身已经失掉了中立性的措辞,并可以被认为是不真诚的。

就我个人而言,我对中国和中国人并没有什么傲慢的态度,但我真地开始觉得中国人越来越傲慢。我的意思是说,中国的许多Quora回答者似乎占据了道德制高点,其隐含前提是,他们受到了西方不公正的对待,需要靠自己展开回击。

我真地不能理解这一点。我不认为中国人是受压迫的群体——作为世界上最大的国家,受谁压迫是极其不可能的。

如今,网络上大多数的反华情绪通常来自没有受过教育的白痴,而且来自西方的概率和来自其他亚洲人的概率相等。

最近中国与西方一直存在分歧的两个问题是:与美国的贸易战,以及澳大利亚的丑闻——有指控称,中国的商界正在向澳大利亚政界人士捐款。

虽然我精通经济学,但我对贸易战的来龙去脉并不了解,但我确实明白,特朗普是为了回应中国不遵守世贸组织规则才对中国的进口产品开征关税的。如果事实确实如此,那么我认为美国是完全正确的。相应地,我不能理解有很多中国人为什么会在逻辑上认为中国不能作为一个自由贸易经济体运作,不允许外国投资以和其他国家外资准入相同的条件进入中国,不允许其货币自由浮动,并指望着不会引起美国等经济大国的(反应性)后果。我的意思是,如果这都不算傲慢,那我真不知道什么才叫傲慢了。

其次,当得知澳大利亚政界人士接受中国商界的捐赠时,我真地不理解中国人宣称澳大利亚政府 “傲慢”的说法。中国应该和任何国家一样清楚地知道,澳大利亚的政治主权是至高无上的、神圣不可侵犯的,因此,总而言之,中国应该尊重澳大利亚,因为它是为了保护自己的利益不受另一个更大国家的侵犯。这怎么就“傲慢”了?我猜,是不是因为你觉得一个更小、更弱的国家就应该知道自己在世界上有几斤几两重。

我已经说过,有些人仍然对鸦片战争后签订的耻辱性条约发出怨妇般的呻吟,就好像他们通过其祖先的回溯(鬼知道隔了多少代)和这些条约有一些情感上的联系,就好像在那段(帝国主义)时期里,那些打输战争的国家要签署(不平等的)和平条约并不是国际标准惯例似的。我想知道他们有没有签署了耻辱的《凡尔赛条约》?在我看来,这与澳大利亚捍卫其主权所表现出的“傲慢”完全不同。

我很抱歉,但在这场争论中,中国的共同点往往是:中国永远是对的。不过,平心而论,这种心态普遍渗透到了大多数非西方文化中,实际上也渗透到了一些西方文化中。

我知道这篇文章也许不能准确回答你的问题,但免费互联网的好处在于我可以随心所欲地表达我的想法。我不想成为一个咆哮的疯子,我只是借此机会不赞同你提的问题的前提。不是贬低你,而是向你的思维介绍另一种观点,它能帮助你理解为什么其他人的观点可能与你的观点不一致。

郑重声明,我不反华,当然也不反华人,但我觉得在Quora上有太多的单向的中国对西方攻击,我只是厌倦了这种敌意,所以我想用另一种观点来捍卫我的立场。

实际上(在我看来,也许我是错的)大多数反华情绪来自于没有受过教育的乡巴佬,而反西方情绪似乎来自于受过更多教育的人,对我来说,这很多都是基于感性(而非理性)。

Sam Teppe

Answered Sun

Before I answer this question, I would like to ask “ Why do West’s view bother us Chinese?” Apparently, whoever asked the question is terribly bothered by the West’s view of China.

Why should we Chinese care about West’s view about China? People entitle to their opinions; they can say whatever they want to say; we can’t change their thoughts or close their mouths; we have better things to do and we are busy. So why can’t we turn our face away and ignore whatever their opinions???

The answer is that we can’t ignore them because they don’t leave us alone!

Let recall history: these Westerners came to China uninvited; they were trying to sell/flood their overproduced industrial products to us in exchange for our tea.

After our emperor clearly told them that we didn’t need those industrial products, they still wanted to buy the tea. We required the hard currency-silver as the payment.

Later, they ran out of silver. Instead of stopping buying tea and leaving us alone, they started selling illegal drug-opium, a criminal acts no country would tolerate. China burned their opium; they waged wars on China. China lost the war.

Ever since, China was robbed by the West from the richest country in the world became the poorest country in the world.

The West had robbed all the wealth we Chinese had cumulated for thousand years, a disaster we Chinese are still paying for till this day. We have to start from scratch to work so hard to cumulate our wealth again and we are still far from being the richest country in the world.

Now the answer to the question: the reason that West’s view of China always full of arrogance and prejudice is, westerners want to hide their crimes they have committed to the non-Western world for the past 500 years.

Below is the answer from a Westerners. He even did not have courage to allow comment to his answer, so I put some excepts in here.

by Culum Pugh,

“I see way more provocative questions about the West from a China perspective, and content which I would deem as China-supremacist than I do that reflects any kind of Western arrogance towards of China.

Frankly it seems like for whatever reason, a lot of Chinese have a chip on their shoulder about the West and cannot wait to rant about it online, not just on Quora but on other forms of social media.

I mean, this question itself is already phrased without neutral language and could be deemed to be insincere.

Personally, I don’t really have any arrogance towards China or the Chinese, but I honestly am beginning to see the Chinese as increasingly arrogant. By this, I mean that there seems to be a moral high ground being occupied by many Chinese Quorans on the implied premise that they have been wronged by the West and need to get their own back.

I seriously cannot comprehend this. I do not see the Chinese as some oppressed group of people - as the world’s largest country, this is extremely unlikely anyway…

The fact that (as I see it, I could be wrong) most anti-Chinese sentiment comes from uneducated hicks, while the anti-Western sentiment seems to come from more educated people, says to me that a lot of it is based on emotion.”

在回答这个问题之前,我想问:“我们中国人为什么要纠结于西方怎么看我们?”显然,任何提出这个问题的人都纠结于西方如何看待中国。

我们中国人为什么要在乎西方对中国的看法呢?人们有权发表自己的意见;他们想说什么就说什么;我们无法改变他们的想法或让他们闭嘴;我们有更重要的事情要做,我们很忙。那么,为什么我们不能把脸转过去,管无视他们对我们的一切看法呢?

答案是,我们不能无视他们,因为他们会主动干涉我们!

让我们回顾一下历史:这些西方人不请自来到了中国;他们想把生产过剩的工业产品卖给我们,以换取我们的茶叶。

在我们的皇帝明确告诉他们我们不需要那些工业产品之后,他们仍然想买茶叶。我们需要硬通货白银作为付款。

后来,他们的白银用光了。他们没有停止购买茶叶,不干涉我们,而是开始销售非法毒品鸦片,这是任何国家都无法容忍的犯罪行为。中国烧了他们的鸦片;他们就对中国发动战争。中国打输了战争。

从那以后,西方将中国从世界上最富有的国家掠夺成为世界上最贫穷的国家。

西方掠夺了我们中国人积累了上千年的所有财富,而我们中国人至今仍在为这场灾难付出代价。我们不得不白手起家,如此努力地工作以积累财富,我们离(再次)成为世界上最富有的国家还有很长的路要走。

现在我来回答这个问题:西方对中国的看法总是充满傲慢和偏见的原因是,西方人想要遮掩他们在过去500年里对非西方世界犯下的罪行。

下面是西方人的回答。他甚至都不敢开放对他的回答评论区,所以我在这里加了一些其他内容。

Culum Pugh的回答——

“……我看到了更多从中国的角度提出的关于西方的挑衅性问题,以及那些我认为是中国至上主义的内容,上述内容都多于西方对中国的傲慢态度。

坦率地说,似乎不管出于什么原因,很多中国人对西方愤愤不平,他们迫不及待地在网上对西方大加指责,不仅仅是在Quora上,在其他社交媒体上也是如此。

我的意思是,这个问题本身已经失掉了中立性的措辞,并可以被认为是不真诚的。

就我个人而言,我对中国和中国人并没有什么傲慢的态度,但我真地开始觉得中国人越来越傲慢。我的意思是说,中国的许多Quora回答者似乎占据了道德制高点,其隐含前提是,他们受到了西方不公正的对待,需要靠自己展开回击。

我真地不能理解这一点。我不认为中国人是受压迫的群体——作为世界上最大的国家,受谁压迫是极其不可能的……

……

实际上(在我看来,也许我是错的)大多数反华情绪来自于没有受过教育的乡巴佬,而反西方情绪似乎来自于受过更多教育的人,对我来说,这很多都是基于感性(而非理性)。”

Phil King

Sun · 1 upvote

After reading the answer you referenced, he openly declared that he is speaking on his own. While I do not agree with his analysis, he does provide insight from a different perspective. I often become offended when people attack my country for historical or non American actions.

I don’t understand trolls. I don’t want to be grouped together with trolls!

在阅读了你提到的那个回答后,他公开宣称只是表达了他的个人看法。虽然我不同意他的分析,但他确实从不同的角度提供了见解。当人们因为历史原因或非美国的行为攻击我的国家时,我经常会感觉被冒犯了。

我不理解那些水军。我不想和那些水军被归为一类!

Sam Teppe

Sun · 1 upvote from Phil King

Yes, I understand he openly declared that he was speaking on his own.

However, instead of keeping his view private, he gave out his view to a public place where everybody can see, it, so I would like to have a chance to debate so the influence is not one sided.

Thanks for your upvote and comment.

是的,我知道他公开宣称只是表达了他的个人看法。

然而,他没有只是保留自己的观点,而是把他的观点发布在了一个人人都能看到的公共场所,所以我希望有机会进行辩论,这样影响力就不是单方面的。谢谢你的赞和评论。

Culum Pugh

Sun

Thanks your for mention of my answer in yours. I do not allow comments on my answers due to the fact that I view this app as a place to answer questions rather than get into arguments with people. It has nothing to do with a lack of courage.

Furthermore, and I am not trying to argue with you here, just to reiterate my point that you seem to have lost, which is that the Opium wars and all that followed it is now irrelevant because it happened so long ago (obviously no one alive today has any real connection to this) and that we all must move on.

谢谢你在你的回答中提到了我的答案。我不允许对我的回答发表评论,是因为我认为这款应用是一个回答问题,而不是与人争论的地方。这不是什么敢不敢的问题。

此外,我不是在和你争论,只是再次重申似乎被你抛弃的我的观点,那就是鸦片战争以及随后所有的历史都和今天不相干,因为它发生在很久以前(显然今天没有哪个活着的人和那段历史有什么真正的联系),而我们必须继续前进。

Sam Teppe

Sun · 1 upvote

Culum Pugh, “the Opium wars and all that followed it is now irrelevant because it happened so long ago (obviously no one alive today has any real connection to this) and that we all must move on”————————Actually, it’s exactly this kind of comments of yours, the way you thoughts that caused me to have the urge to debate you: You Westerners, including yourself, now have the prospers and much richer life than us Chinese, it’s because your Westerners’ ancestors’ robbed China; they robbed our Chinese’s ancestors!

I stated in my own answer that “The West had robbed all the wealth we Chinese had cumulated for thousand years, a disaster we Chinese are still paying for till this day. “

Do you understand, what your ancestors did 170 years ago still effect us Chinese/China today, it for sure effect your and all Westerns’ life, that’s why you Westerners are still much richer than us. Even happened so long ago, how could you say that the crimes committed by your ancestors are irrelevant today?

Culum Pugh,“鸦片战争以及随后所有的历史都和现在没什么关系,因为它发生在很久以前(显然今天没有哪个活着的人和那段历史有什么真正的联系),而我们必须继续前进”——实际上这正是你评论的观点,你的思维方式让我有和你论战的冲动:你们西方人,包括你自己,现在有比我们中国人更繁荣和更富有的生活,那是因为你们西方人的“祖先”抢劫了中国;他们抢劫了我们中国人的祖先!

我在自己的回答中提到: “西方掠夺了我们中国人积累了上千年的所有财富,而我们中国人至今仍在为这场灾难付出代价”

你知道吗,你们的祖先在170年前所做的事,至今仍影响着我们中国人/中国,它也肯定影响着你和所有西方人的生活,这就是为什么你们西方人比我们富有得多。就算这发生在很久以前,你怎么能说你们祖先犯下的罪行和今天不相干呢?

Culum Pugh

Sun · 1 upvote

Hahahahahaha.

If my “ancestors” had any role in this I might know them by name, but I am sorry that I don’t.

War is hell, if you couldn’t rebuild yourself after 180 years then it’s hardly my problem.

It’s not really your problem either.

Why don’t you live in YOUR present and SOMEONE else’s past. Whether you think they are your an ancestors or my ancestors or whatever they are all dead and gone.

Furthermore, unless you care to reveal your real name, I will not be wasting any more of my time replying to you.

Oh PS, you forgot to mention the 29 years of planned economy, and the civil wars when you were explaining why China is poorer than the West.

哈哈哈哈哈哈。

如果我的“祖先们”在其中扮演了某种角色,我可能知道他们的名字,但我很抱歉我不知道。

战争是地狱,但如果你们在180年后依然重建不了自己,那就很难说是我的问题了。

这其实也不是你的问题。

你为什么不活在你自己的当下和别人的过去中呢?不管你认为他们是你的祖先还是我的祖先或者其他什么,他们都已经逝世并消失了。

而且,除非你愿意透露你的真实姓名,否则我不会再浪费时间回复你了。

哦,顺便一提,当时你在解释为什么中国比西方穷时,你忘了提长达29年的计划经济了,还有国共内战。

Sam Teppe

Sun · 1 upvote

Culum Pugh, Yes, your ancestor involved in those wars, as long as they were the citizens of the offending countries. Because the robbing were actions committed by countries, and benefit all their citizens, therefore, all their citizens were responsible for those crimes.

We lost wealth that took 2000 years to cumulate, after being robbed to the naked, it’s very hard to rebuild our country from zero.

Please remember, your ancestors did not start from zero to build your country, they start by robbing, killing, cheating; all dishonest means to cumulate their wealth.

Our Chinese ancestors had cumulated our wealth by trading silk, tea and china, all by honest working.

Of course to rob a bank is much easier to get rich than to work on a crop field. LOL

Culum Pugh,是的,只要你的祖先是那些侵犯过中国的国家的公民,那他们就算参与了那些战争。因为抢劫是国家行为,对其所有公民都有利,因此,所有公民都应对这些罪行负责。

我们花了2000年才积累起来的财富,在被抢劫到一丝不挂之后,我们很难从零开始重建我们的国家。

请记住,你们的祖先不是白手起家建立你们的国家了,他们是从掠夺、杀害、欺骗起步的;所有的不诚实都意味着积累他们的财富。

我们的中国祖先通过买卖丝绸、茶叶和瓷器来积累财富,都是靠诚实的工作。

抢银行当然要比在农田里干活容易得多。呵呵

Sam Teppe

Sun

Culum Pugh, “Why don’t you live in YOUR present and SOMEONE else’s past. Whether you think they are your an ancestors or my ancestors or whatever they are all dead and gone.”————————-Because, at the present, you Westerners still don’t leave China/Chinese alone. You attitude is: all the crimes against humanity you Westerns committed to China, you decide you and I should move on as if nothing happened, you don’t have to pay any price and accept any judgement, not even admit you are guilty.

Then, you Westerners still have the audacity to accuse China about democracy, human rights, liberty, etc.

“Furthermore, unless you care to reveal your real name, I will not be wasting any more of my time replying to you.”————————That’s ok, I appreciate you comments under my answers so both our points can be show to the public.

“Oh PS, you forgot to mention the 29 years of planned economy, and the civil wars when you were explaining why China is poorer than the West.”——————————-There is nothing wrong with planned economy, China’s economy is still planned, the 11th 5-year-plan at the present.

The 29 years your refer to was a period under the US embargo because of the Korean War. US was the cause.

During the civil wars in 1940s, China was already very poor, when the US-backed KMT took all the gold reserve China had to Taiwan, things nearly hopeless.

ltaaaTxt

Sam Teppe

Sun · 1 upvote

Culum Pugh, I said the West or Westerners, never meant your personally. Please don’t switch back and forth between individual and country. Our discussion is not about individuals, it’s about country which including individuals.

When I use word “YOU”, I mean you as a member of western countries; you are part of a whole at national or international level, never mean you as an unique individual.

“As I said before, I don’t take responsibility for the actions of other people who happen to be the same race as me.”——————————When talking about the crimes the West committed, Westerners use the word “I”, “I am not part of this, I am not responsible for this”.

But When talky about the glory of the West, Westerners use the “We”, “We create democracy, human rights, all the machinery people are using everywhere, we invented the internet, computers, cell phone, etc.” They never say” I am not part of this, a am not responsible for all this” LOL

Culum Pugh,我说的是西方或西方人,从来都不是指你个人。请不要在个人和国家之间来回切换。我们的讨论不是关于个人的,而是关于包括个人在内的国家。

当我用“你”这个词时,我指的是你作为西方国家的一员;在国家或国际层面上,你是一个整体的一部分,绝不意味着你是一个独特的个体。

“就像我之前说的,我不为那些碰巧和我同一种族的人的行为负责”——在谈到西方犯下的罪行时,西方人会用“我”这个词,“我不是其中的一部分,我不对此负责。”

但是,当谈到西方的荣耀时,西方人用“我们”,“我们创造了民主,人权,以及所有人们都在使用的机器,我们发明了互联网,电脑,手机等等”他们从来没有说过“我不是这个群体的一部分,一个跟所有这些都不相干的人”呵呵

Culum Pugh

Sun

Show me where I claimed credit for western glory.

你指给我看看我哪里提到说我有功于西方荣耀的荣誉。

Sam Teppe

Sun

Culum Pugh, “Show me where I claimed credit for western glory.”——————You didn’t, however. I did not refer to your personally. As I stated before, we are talking about an issue at an individual level.

BTW, what do you think the glory of the West? Are you part of it or not? Are you proud?

Culum Pugh,“你指给我看看我哪里提到说我有功于西方荣耀的荣誉”——你没有提,但是我也没有提到你个人。正如我之前所说的,我们在个人层面上讨论一个问题。

顺便问一下,你怎么看待西方的荣耀?你是不是其中的一部分?你对此感到骄傲吗?

Culum Pugh

Sun

I am an individual who happens to be white. That’s it.

I don’t have any pride or shame to be white.

My only racial/political agenda is that I am sick to death of having to read and tolerate and be forced to accept criticism of my race from others who seem to have impunity to do so.

我是一个碰巧是白人的人。就是这样。

我对作为白人没有任何骄傲或羞愧。

我唯一的种族/政治议程是,我极度厌恶不得不阅读和忍受,并被迫接受对我的种族的批评,而其他干了同样事情的人似乎不用受惩罚。

Sam Teppe

Tue

Culum Pugh, why does criticism of my race from others make you sick to death? They did not criticize you as an individual, why are you bothered so much? Coz you belong to the same race, you know you are a member is a group and you feel you should defend your group.

I feel the same. I am a member of a different group. Although we both are NOT represent our own group, we sure defending it.

Because your group did something inhuman to my group one and a half century ago, we both have experienced different fate or outcome of our life, you got born rich and I was born poor.

As long as your group is still existing and influential in the world, you are responsible to what your group did in the past.

Culum Pugh,为什么别人对我种族的批评让你恶心得要死?他们没有批评你个人,为什么你这么恼怒?因为你属于同一个种族,你知道你是一个群体的一员,你觉得你应该保护你的群体。

我也有同样的感觉。我是一个不同群体的成员。虽然我们都不代表我们自己的群体,但我们肯定会捍卫它。

因为你的群体在一个半世纪前对我的群体做了一些不人道的事情,(因此)我们都经历了不同的命运或结果,你生而富有,而我生而贫穷。

只要你的群体仍然存在,并且在世界上有影响力,你就要对你的群体过去所做的事情负责。

Culum Pugh

23h ago

Ok, should I go apologize for being born white to every Chinese person I encounter today?

And to answer why the criticism makes me sick to death, it’s because it’s often done on the premise that it’s ok because white people are supposedly evil and that shit.

Again the same point, I didn’t commit acts of evil and I don’t think I should have to live my life paying the price of for the actions of someone else who I have no control over.

Do you really think you can convince me to feel otherwise?

We can go back and forth forever, but I don’t think anything you say is going to convince to me to feel personally guilty to the point where I will feel a debt to other people who I have not personally wronged.

好吧,我是不是应该就我生而作为白人,向我今天遇到的每一个中国人道歉?

要回答为什么这些批评让我感到恶心,是因为它通常是基于这样的前提——因为白人被认为是邪恶的。

同样的,我没有犯下邪恶的行为,我不认为我应该为别人的行为付出代价,因为我无法控制别人的行为。

你真的认为你能说服我有别的感觉吗?

我们可以打太极一直打下去,但我不认为你说的任何话会让我觉得自己有罪,以至于我会觉得欠别人的债,而我自己并没有对别人做下错事。

Sam Teppe

22h ago

Culum Pugh, 1st of all, let’s not use the word “race”, because race is a much bigger and ambiguous concept.

Not all the white as a race committed the colonial evil acts, for example the white in East Europe did not have the history of Christian Colonialism, neither did Aryan/Iranian. Even within the white race, “who is white who is not” are still being arguing. For example, “Russians are Mongols with European veneer” (Zbigniew Brzezinski) in the eyes of some European and Americans.

Those who committed all those evil acts for the past 500 years are Western Europeans, those who invented the Renaissance, the Protestant Reformation, the Enlightenment, the Human Rights and Democracy. That’s why I name this group “the West or Westerns”.

You are the member of Westerner.

“Again the same point, I didn’t commit acts of evil and I don’t think I should have to live my life paying the price of for the actions of someone else who I have no control over”————————-You think the Jews would let the Germans get away with this kind of thoughts today?

首先,我们不要用“种族”这个词,因为种族是一个更大更模糊的概念。

并不是所有的白人都犯下了殖民的恶行,例如,东欧的白人就没有基督教殖民主义的历史,雅利安人/伊朗人也没有。即使在白人种族中,“谁是白人谁不是白人”仍在争论不休。例如,在一些欧洲人和美国人的眼中,“俄罗斯人是披着欧洲外衣的蒙古人”(语出兹比格涅夫·布热津斯基)。

ltaaaTxt

Sam Teppe

22h ago

Culum Pugh, Jews does not blame Germans today for committed that crime, but Jews DOES hold German today responsible for NOT to allowing that crime happened again!

The Jews do believe that there are something in Germans’ mind that easily create the evil thoughts, so the Germans need to be reminded again and again, years after years, from Childhood to adulthood, to Never follow their predecessor’s footsteps. Jews remind Germans their responsibility by talking about the Holocaust every year on TV.

I am doing the same as the Jews, I hold you responsible for Not Letting Your Group’s Evil actions Happen Again!

At Least, you could recognize your group did committed the evil act against China and feel shamed that you have such predecessors, or you can show sympathy that we Chinese today are still paying the price for your group’s crimes; you also could express your understanding that why we Chinese always bring up those past sad stories.

Culum Pugh,犹太人不会因为德国人曾经犯下了那样的罪行而责怪今天的德国人,但是犹太人确实要求今天的德国人为不让这种罪行再次发生而负责!

犹太人确实相信,在德国人的头脑中,有某种东西很容易产生邪恶的想法,所以需要一次又一次地提醒德国人,年复一年,从童年到成年,永远不要跟随前任的脚步。犹太人每年都在电视上谈论大屠杀,以此来提醒德国人他们的责任。

我在做的事和犹太人一样,我认为你们有责任不让你们群体的恶行再次发生!

至少,你能认识到你的群体确实对中国犯下了恶行,并且为你有这样的先辈而感到羞愧,或者你能对今天我们中国人仍在为你的群体的罪行付出代价表示同情;你也可以表达你对于为什么我们中国人总是提起那些悲伤往事的理解。

本文来源:https://www.quora.com

免责声明:本文编译自互联网,不代表《歪果仁看中国》的观点和立场。

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